In this episode Marc shares with us his humble beginnings and the path that lead him to helping people eliminate the junk in their mind that keeps them from living the healthy, happy life they were meant to.
Marc David is the Founder of the Institute for the Psychology of Eating, and a leading visionary, teacher and consultant in Nutritional Psychology. He’s the author of the classic and bestselling books Nourishing Wisdom and The Slow Down Diet, which have been translated into over 10 languages. Marc has held senior consulting positions at Canyon Ranch Resorts, the Kripalu Center for Yoga and Health, the Johnson & Johnson Corporation, and the Disney Company. He’s worked in product development in the natural foods and supplements industry, combining expertise in clinical nutrition and natural health. He also served on the editorial board of Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine. Marc has been featured on CNN, NBC, and numerous media outlets. His fresh, inspiring and innovative messages about food, body and soul appeal to a wide audience of eaters who are ready for a whole new approach. Marc has appeared in publications such as The New York Times, Chicago Times, McCall’s, Glamour, Elle, Utne Reader, Yoga Journal, WebMD and numerous others. He’s presented at a long list of professional settings including Harvard University, The Institute for Functional Medicine and The National Institute for the Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine. Marc’s teaching organization, The Institute of the Psychology of Eating, is the world’s only online school dedicated to a progressive, positive, holistic understanding of eating psychology and nutrition. Unique and revolutionary in its approach, the Institute teaches students and professionals how to effectively work with the most common and compelling eating challenges of our times in their internationally acclaimed Eating Psychology Coach Certification Training. The Institute also features cutting edge programs for the public. Learn more here: psychologyofeating.com.
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Glenn: Hello Marc. How are you doing today?
Marc: Glenn, I am doing great. Thanks for having me here.
Glenn: So where are you calling from?
Marc: I am speaking to you from a beautiful place called Boulder, Colorado, more technically in a small town called Niwot. And it’s got such a gorgeous view of Colorado Rocky Mountains. I’m a lucky guy.
Glenn: Wow. That sounds great. I’m in Portland, Oregon. We are having one of those magical weather days right now. It’s sunny, green, and crisp and clean. And just the air is such a treat to breathe. Every time I take a breath, I smile.
Marc: Yey! Good for you.
Glenn: It’s fantastic. So I wanted to talk with you today because you are the founder of the psychology of eating, correct?
Marc: Uhum. The institute for the psychology of eating. Absolutely.
Glenn: I would really like to know how you got to be where you are now. What led you to found this institute?
Marc: You know Glenn, thanks for asking that. I truly believe that often times, necessity is indeed the mother of invention. So really I think it started in infancy. I was born sickly asthmatic, allergic, immuno-compromised, almost died a handful of times in infancy. You know this was back in the 60’s my parents took me from doctor to doctor. Nothing worked. I was frustrated. And around the age of 5, this is kind of shocking but I heard a rumor that’s fruits and vegetables were good for you.
Glenn: No way.
Marc: Yeah. Yeah, I was raised on a generation of everything artificial and synthetic.
Glenn: Holy cow.
Marc: I didn’t eat anything real. So I asked my mother to buy apples and peas and carrots in a can because that was my concept of fruits and vegetables. Coincidence or not, my health started to change after a few months. And you know honestly from a very young age, I had this magical experience that — A, I have some power even though I’m a little, sickly kid; and B, food impacts my health and my wellbeing. That was a revelation. And from those moments, I literally, I was a fanatic then and learned everything I could about nutrition, studied it in school, went on to become a clinical nutritionist.
And over the years, what I started to notice very early on because I you know there was a point in 1980s you can read every book and every textbook on nutrition. There just wasn’t a lot. And I got to the point, I would see clients. I used to have a practice on Wall Street in New York City. And I was working with some of the smartest, the most motivated people on planet earth and I would tell them what to do and what to eat so that they could lose weight or help their digestion. They come back a week or two later, and say, “Yeah, I know what you told me to do. I know what I’m supposed to do. I just couldn’t do it.”
And that was yet another revelation. I realized “My goodness, I can hurl tons of nutrition facts at another human being but if I don’t start to understand the mind and the heart and the soul, I’ve failed and, then my work is not complete.” So that put me on a path to learn eating psychology. And I’m not talking about eating disorders. I’m into eating psychology for everyone, for you, for me for every person you know who overeats, to binge eat, wants to lose some weight, who emotionally has challenges around food, who has body image concerns. So that’s what led me to this place of realizing that this was a huge missing piece in the nutrition conversation because if you’re interested in nutrition, then you have to understand your mind because this is going to be motivating you and inspiring you or blocking you in all kinds of different ways. That’s the short answer my friend.
Glenn: Wow. That was amazing. I have so many follow up questions based on what you just said right there. And I think it’s fantastic. First off, I want to say that your beginnings in to this path of your career in life sound a very synonymous to Jack Lalanne.
Glenn: He grew up – as for those of you that don’t know – he grew up as a major sugar junkie and he was a sickly kid. He was a teenager and just feeling sickly and weak and lousy. And I believe he’s like—oh he went to a nutrition lecture in Berkeley and it literally changed his life, quite literally. And because of that change, many other people’s lives as well. So do you see anything like that on the horizon for you as far as changing the world?
Marc: Well you know something what’s fascinating is since the Institute for the Psychology of Eating, since our work went online and that was goodness about 8-9 years ago maybe; we have exploded. So just across all of our social media platforms, we probably reached at least a million people that we know of who are you know signed up on our email list and our just on our Facebook pages, Instagram. You name it. So we’re reaching a ton of people with our message so I’m a happy guy in that regards.
Glenn: That is fantastic. That’s very inspirational. You know this has been a kind of a pet interest of mine for many, many years as I’m a personal trainer. And like 90% of the time, my clients want to lose “weight.” And that’s one of the things I coach them on. And you know over the years and years, I’ve notice well yeah, you can give them good advice. You can talk to them about things, set a schedule, set a plan, set goals just do everything perfect. And they still don’t follow through. And that’s what has come to my attention and realization is that it really is in the mind. It starts from the mind. I’ve had many guests on my show that have changed their life simply because they changed their mind. They changed their health because they changed their attitude.
Marc: Bingo. And often times that is ground zero. That is where the action is because Yeah, there can be all kinds of people who come to you and say I want to lose weight. And normally, what we’re taught on the topic of weight for example is that the royal road to weight loss is calories in and calories out.
Marc: Another way is saying that is to eat less and exercise more. And the reality is we’ve been getting that message from the experts since the 1960’s. And as it turns out’, 98-99% of all the humans who go on a weight loss diet and a weight-loss program gained the weight back within a year or less these days and then some. So something’s not working. And I think the thing that’s not working often times is what is in the way. What’s going inside me, inside my psyche, inside my mind, inside my beliefs that are toxic, that’s holding me back, that’s sending me in the wrong direction? So I love dissecting that with people.
Glenn: I do too. You know a lot of times—it’s funny because I teach health and physical education at a community college level – and a lot of times, I have a student come up to me and they’ll say now I heard that weight loss is 90% nutrition or they might have some other number. But they heard some sort of number that is supposed to balance nutrition versus activity, how much activity shall I do versus how much focus should I put in to my eating. And I always tell them “It’s not as clean-cut as that. It depends on the person. It depends on what you’re currently eating, what you’re currently doing like some people are max out on their physical activity. They’re working out two hours a day every single day. Well, I’m not going to say that you need to work out more. That’s simply not true. But I’m really kind of the mind neither of those matter nearly as much as your attitude. And I’m wondering do you have an idea or do you have kind of a ratio of how much of it comes from the mind? I mean I might even just my uneducated self might even say it’s a hundred percent mental.
Glenn: What would you say?
Marc: You know Glenn, I love the question. I usually won’t think in those terms but what I will say is this that I would put mind and emotions as number one on the list, meaning I want to look at that place first and foremost. Of course, I want to look at a person’s nutrition. Of course, I want to look at their activity, exercise, movement. But first and foremost, unless I understand who they are and where they’re coming from and what they’re thinking and what is motivating them or pushing them or inspiring them, until I understand that; then I can have all the nutrition information and exercise information but nothing’s going to work.
Let me give you an example. You know I had many years ago, a woman came to see me and she was running marathons. She was eating about 12 hundred calories a day. And she was training marathons. So here’s a woman who’s running 5-6 miles per day. She’s running 12-16 miles on the weekends. And she can’t lose a single pound and she has 40 pounds to lose. Now she has gone to every level of medical intervention that a human can possibly have. And she’s got the cleanest bill of health. So according to all of scientific and nutritional reality, this woman who is running her brains out and starving herself, she should be losing at least a pound or two.
Marc: Let alone the 40 that she truly has to lose. And everybody stumped. and actually the doctor that sent me to her, said to me “I think she’s lying. I think she must be eating a ton of food.”
Marc: So anyway I start to talk to this woman. And when I began to see was that she was a human who was living in a major amount of stress and fear. Her job was killing her. She was the breadwinner in her family. She was raising two kids at the same time of you know working in an investment company, long hours during the week. And she was hating herself for her body weight. And what our work became, I told her I actually need you to eat more food.
Glenn: Yeah, uhuh.
Marc: I need you to eat more healthy fat. I need you to eat more healthy protein. Why? Because you’re signaling your body that’s in starvation mode which is going to slow down metabolism. Next, we have to help get you to a place where you begin to lose some of the stress and the anxiety that you’re pumping through your system because that translates into stress chemistry. It translates extra insulin, extra cortisol both of which when you’re artificially elevating them, day in and day out, will signal the body to store weight and store fat and not build muscle. And what’s fascinating was we worked together for a number of months and the woman transformed by eating A, more food, healthy fat and protein. I actually took her off, believe it or not, of intense running because she couldn’t stand it. She hated it.
Glenn: Oh geez.
Marc: She wasn’t running because I love running, I love to move my body, I love exercise. She was running because she hated her body and she hated body fat. I actually put her on dance classes and yoga and Pilates which she said she likes. I wanted to know what you enjoy.
Marc: So she was technically doing less calorie burning exercise. All of a sudden, she was lit up. She was having a good time and the weight came off.
Glenn: That’s amazing. That’s exactly the kind of thing that I tried to express to my clients. It’s really amazing at how resistant they are to that. Eat more, exercise less. It just go countered to what they’ve been taught for maybe their entire life.
Marc: Well Glenn, I think you just identified it. That’s the resistance because that’s what we’ve been taught since junior high school. And it sounds like it’s smart. It sounds like it works. And it gets drilled to us. We don’t even realize how that gets drilled into the media through just the words calorie, through hearing about things that weight-watchers and diet soda and diet coke this, and diet Pepsi. We’re constantly thinking in those terms. But it’s only a tiny, tiny portion of the story.
Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. It really is. And I still kind of you know half way chuckle, half way beat my head against the wall when somebody in their early twenties heard from their cousin or from a post in Facebook, something that’s completely untrue, and here I am living my life for this type of knowledge and finding the truth and reading scientific journals and experimenting and just living health and fitness and weight management and all that stuff; and they will not believe what I have to say. It’s frustrating.
Marc: You know I think Glenn, part of it is that people want quick fixes. We have been conditioned for a quick fix: buy the lottery ticket, and you can quick fix your income if you win; or here’s the magic pill; or here’s the magic diet; or here’s the one magic exercise that’s going to give you overnight you know buns of steel or whatever it is. And we don’t want to do the work.
Marc: And sometimes the work is outer work meaning “Yeah, I got to get to the gym. I got to move my body.” For a lot of us, there’s work in there and that’s okay but there’s also personal work. There’s also inner work. And if you’re gonna get lazy around the inner work, then you’re not going to get the results that you want. So really what I’m trying to say Glenn is I think we’re living in a time when we can no longer ignore the fact that who we are as people, who you are, who I am as a human being; that’s impacting the rest of my life. It’s gonna impact my relationship with food, my diet, my physiology, my eating habits so we have to be willing to look in the mirror. And I will — how can I say it? — I will spank my clients. I will let them know and know in certain terms what I just said to you. And I will tell them “Listen, if you want to get where you want to go, you have to step up. You have to step up in your own personal development. And if not, you’re going to continue to get the exact same results which is being where you are right now.”
Glenn: Oh yeah. Don’t you… Doesn’t that just drive you crazy when they do the same thing over and over and hope for different results?
Marc: We’re very conditionable creatures in that way. We are very Pavlovian. We will keep expecting the same response over and over and over and over again even though it never comes to us. And that’s where personal development comes in. We have to be able to self reflect and look at the mirror and say, “Huh, I’ve been dieting for 20 years and it hasn’t worked. And I still haven’t loss weight sustainably. I’m still unhappy. I’m still miserable maybe I should change my strategy.” So a lot of times, we need help. We need coaching. We need a mentor. We need a guide. We need the right book. We need the right person. We need something to kind of jiggle the handle on our understanding so we can start to go down a different road, a new road.
Glenn: Yeah, I thoroughly agree. And many, many years ago, I read a book called emotional eating written by Dr. Ed Abramson. And he was one of the first guests I had on my podcast. It was back in episode 8. And we’re on… This one’s going to be whatever we’re looking at episode 84 is the one you’re on right now. And so it’s been quite awhile but I still abide by what he has. And one of the reasons I wanted him on the show because it just seems so clear that the mind leads the body. And so many people eat emotionally. And emotionally can’t be happier said. I have young kids. and what happens when they go to a birthday party? They eat what? Cake.
Marc: Cake and sugar.
Glenn: Cake and, yeah, liquid sugar and that kind of… I’m really concerned about the long term effects of that, not because of the immediate damage the sugar does but because the psychological attachment they have to that sort of food. And so when I and Doctor Abramson’s on here, I wanted to find out what he had to say about emotional eating, how much do you deal with the emotional side of it, not just getting in the right mindset and changing the attitude but just dealing with emotions either good, bad or ugly, whichever they are.
Marc: Oh in a big way. And I tend to put mind and emotions into the same bucket because often times, one is driving the other. Oftentimes, our emotions will drive our beliefs and our thoughts. Often times, the thoughts and the beliefs that we have will lead us down certain emotional tunnels. So I am always trying to understand the emotionality, what is driving a human being as an example. There are many people who when you look at them on paper; they’re doing the right exercise; they’re eating really healthy food; they have a really great lifestyle; and on paper. Then, you would “Wow you’re doing all the right things.” But they’re still not losing weight or they still maybe even did lose the weight. They might even have the body that they wanted because they created it through diet and exercise but they’re literally unhappy. And every time they look in the mirror, even though they weigh exactly what they want and they reached their goal, they still hate themselves. This is very common. And what’s happening – I call these people “false positives” meaning their outer form has changed but the inner experience called “I disapprove of myself, I’m not enough, I’m not lovable as I am.” There’s that complex of thoughts and emotions that are driving us so that even when we get the goal that we want, we’re still not happy. And that’s when we really have to examine ourselves. I also know people who are doing the best exercise and eating the greatest foods but they’re motivating themselves out of fear. “Oh my God. If I don’t do this, I’m going to get fat.”
Glenn: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Marc: “Oh my God if I don’t do this, I’m never going to find love. I’m never going to find a girl. I’m never going to find a guy,” whatever it is. So what’s – so on paper again, they have good behaviors – but what’s motivating them is fear, is insecurity. And if that’s what your journey is, then that’s what the destination is gonna be. If the road is filled with self-hate, self-attacks, self-judgment or I’m not enough, then how could your destination one of happiness and self-love?
So I’m always looking to help people begin whatever journey they’re on with food or weight is to start that journey from a place of relaxing into it to start the journey from a place of understanding “Yeah I have my goals but I am going to appreciate myself into this experience. I’m going to love myself into this experience. I’m gonna cheerlead myself into this new exercise program, into this new way of eating as opposed to beat myself up along the way. Because if you’re beating yourself up along the way, it’s a silly strategy quite frankly.
Glenn: Well, you know our country here United States founded off of just people’s distaste for people for tyrants. And a lot of people kind of rule themselves like tyrants. They’re bullies. They’re dictators. They’re tyrants. And they’re making themselves like the example you gave of the woman doing the long hard runs and you know really basically abusing yourself trying to get a certain result. And we both know this is not the way to go for a long term result. If you’re an athlete and that’s what it takes to get you to be better than your competition, sure as a temporary measure but not as a lifetime.
Marc: You know so true. And it’s so true that we don’t like tyrants and yet, we can become that for self. And it really points to the place in us where we have to understand human psychology. We have to understand how the mind works. Most people think that I’m me. I’m this guy called that I called me. And in reality, we have many different characters inside us. We have many different personas. So if you have kids, you happened to be a dad, and that’s a certain persona. But if you’re you know a fitness expert and then you have that persona in you. If you’re a husband, then you have your husband persona. You’re a friend. You have that persona. You’re a son of somebody so you have that persona. You also have the scientist in you. You might have the little kid in you. You might have the party guy in you. So my point is we have many different personas and any given situation, one of those personas is at the head of the table. So when you come home from work and you’re with your kids, probably daddy persona takes over. That’s a good thing.
What happens is a lot of people, their inner critique, tend to rule the roost. It tends to sit at the head of the table whenever we eat or our rebel might sit at the head of the table whenever we eat. And we have to begin to notice what is driving us, what is moving us. And from there, we can make successful adjustment. But we have to understand “Wow, who’s eating right now? Well it’s me sitting down eating this meal but is it the fearful person in me that’s afraid that I’m going to gain weight and hate myself forever? Is the person eating this meal, the adult, the king, the queen in me who’s sitting down and I’m confident and I’m embodied and I’m in my power? And I’m not gonna be you know this talking to myself with you know just nonsense insults.” It’s a beautiful way to look at the psyche because it’s very effective and helps people understand themselves better.
Glenn: That is fascinating. It makes me wonder how do you work with people. Do they come see you in person? Is it an online thing or phone or how are you able to really help the majority of your clients?
Marc: Well, I for one, I don’t really see clients anymore because of the Institute of the Psychology of Eating, that’s my fulltime job times five, where I’m you know developing our programs and teachings so we basically train practitioners. We train coaches. We train healers, councilors to do this work. And once you learned the protocols and the skills in our practitioner training, we have, it’s an 8-month online training and you learn how to work with weight and over eating and binge eating and emotional eating and the mind-body dimensions of you know health issues like digestion, mood, fatigue, immunity, etcetera. So it’s really then learning to ask the right questions. It’s learning to have the right distinctions to understand the mind, to understand the fundamentals of eating psychology but also understand the fundamentals of how mind impacts physiology. So it’s not just on the one hand it’s nutrition and science and on the other hand, it’s pure psychology. Sort of yes but the point is the two are constantly intermixing with each other – meaning this you know if I’m in a relaxation response when I eat, I am technically in the optimum state of digestion, assimilation day in day out calorie burning. That’s how humans are designed. We are designed to eat a meal in parasympathetic nervous system dominance, relaxation and response. We are not designed to eat a meal in sympathetic nervous system in dominance or stress response. It’s just how we’re hardwired.
So when humans are constantly in a state of stress because I’m either talking negative self talk; I’m hating my body and I’m eating at the same time; or I’m eating while I’m rushing, which is a stressor for the body; or I’m eating while I’m sitting at my desk and my boss is mad at me. That’s stressful. So I’m eating. I’m changing my nutritional physiology. I am literally causing nutrients excretion. I am literally causing digestive upset by what’s happening in my mind. So the short answer to your question is learning the psychology, learning the science and learning the places where they overlap and then you get out there and you practice on humans. And you learn to work with them and ask the right questions and also, hear beneath their answer. Because a lot of times, what people tell you and what they’re really wanting to say is two different things.
Glenn: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. So if somebody is listening to this and they have been struggling with their weight for many years and they decide “Okay, maybe it’s time I start working on my mind.” What would be their best next step to find somebody to help them?
Marc: You know there is a number of places to start. if you want to go with a practitioner, goodness I recommend one of our trained practitioners because I trained them. If you go to psychologyofeating.com. That’s our website. We have a portal. We have a link there where you can find a practitioner. So that’s a great place. We have a directory and you can look at their pictures. You can look at their specialty. You can look at their website. You can email them and chitchat. And find out if it’s a good match for you. So our directory on psychology of eating.ocm, that’s a great place to start.
Marc: You know to educate yourself. My most recent book is ‘Slow Down Diet’ is a great distillation of a lot of the work with what we do particularly around the mind-body aspect of nutrition and how thoughts, feelings, beliefs and emotions impact nutritional metabolism. ‘Slow Down Diet’ is a very readable book. It has been a bestseller for 10 years. And you know also on our website, we have a ton of free resources for goodness sake. We have a video channel on YouTube with tons of free videos. We’re constantly posting things on Facebook. We have blogs, written blogs, that are really great. You can learn a ton just from there and start to understand a whole different way to work with yourself.
Glenn: Right. Right. I know if you’ll sign up for your newsletter that you’ll get a bunch of videos from that. And that’s very helpful. It can help send you down the right path.
Marc: Absolutely and I love making videos too. It’s one of the more fun things I get to do on my job. I don’t know why I like it so much but it’s exciting.
Glenn: Because you’re a movie star.
Marc: There you go. I wish sometimes.
Glenn: That’s your inner movie star coming out.
Marc: There you go. That’s it.
Glenn: Alright Marc. Thank you very much. This has been very insightful. Is there anything I missed?
Marc: Oh my goodness. I don’t know if you’ve missed anything. You know there’s always so much to talk about. But you know if anybody tuning in, wants a good tip, a couple actionable pieces to start to see if you can notice something different when it comes to a more mind-body approach to how you eat and how you do food and nutrition. I don’t care what you eat is. If you’re trying to learn how to better control or manage your appetite, if you want to go for weight loss, if you find yourself overeating, emotional eating or binge eating or if you find yourself heavy and tired and fatigue after meals, this is a great strategy I’m about to give you. And that is learn how to become a slow relaxed eater. So if you’re a fast or a moderate eater, that’s a habit being a fast eater.
Marc: I want you to slowly train yourself to be a slow eater. If you’re eating your breakfast in 2 minutes and your lunch in 5 minutes and your dinner 7 minutes, I want you to try to double it. And it doesn’t mean you have to sit there being bored out of your mind. It means you engage yourself. You enjoy the food. You relax. You pretend you’re in France sitting in a café. You know you eat with people that you enjoy. You create a nourishing eating experience and you slow down and you taste the food. And you savor it because what you’re doing is your giving the body the physiologic requirements that most people don’t realize that the body has a physiologic requirement for pleasure. And as a physiologic requirement for taste, for aroma and those needs need to be satisfied. When they’re not, they’ll be driven to eat more.
So if you eat fast, if you don’t notice your food, if you’re multi-tasking when you eat and then you have a big meal, your belly feels full and your mouth feels hungry. That’s why. Your belly knows “Oh my God. I’m distended too much food,” but your brain says “I don’t remember eating. I don’t remember tasting. I don’t remember pleasure. I’m hungry.” So your brain drives you to eat more food. You’re actually not a will power weakling. You’re activating a wise circuitry in the brain when the brain thinks it didn’t eat.
Marc: So as you slow down, as you make contact with your meal and you begin to eat like a human who loves and enjoys food, believe it or not, that will be a powerful metabolic enhancer. You will be putting your body in parasympathetic nervous system dominance which is the optimum state of digestion assimilation, natural appetite regulation and day in day out calorie burning. That’s kind of what I wanted to share in closing, Glenn.
Glenn: That is fantastic. That’s a great set. That’s one of the things I tell my clients who you know most of them do eat too fast. They gulp it and they don’t taste their food. I recommend using baby utensils, fork or spoons or chopsticks. One of the things I also tell them is to don’t not swallow until all of their food are pulverized it as a fine paste and I say, I asked them do you like food. And so far, nobody has ever said no. Everybody loves to taste food. So let’s chew it and keep in our mouths longer and taste it and savor it like you said and you will enjoy it a lot more rather than just swallowing it like you know so many people do.
Marc: Bingo. You got it.
Glenn: Yeah. Alright Marc well it is certainly been eye opening, a pleasure speaking with you. I love to have you on the show again someday. I’m going to have links to your site, your new book in my Show Note’s page under episode 84 on the livefitpodcast. Do you have any partying shouts for us?
Marc: My partying shout is I would love for you all to continue to be nutritional explorers. Just be a scientist of your own body. And don’t worry about the perfect diet and the perfect system. Just make it an ongoing exploration because we changed, the body changes, information changes. So enjoy your nutritional journey.
Glenn: I love it. I think I’m gonna do that as soon as I hang up with you.
Marc: Good for you.
Glenn: Alright Marc. Do you have a wonderful day and a wonderful weekend.
Marc: Thank you so much, Glenn. Thanks for doing this. Great job.
Glenn: Thank you. Take care.
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